Accentuate Writers Forum

About marketing your book

dalehileman - 12/6/2009 at 12:05 PM

I've found the topic involved and complex:

http://wordsmith.org/board/ubbthreads.php/topics/176150/Free_publis...

....to such an extent that eventually I just gave up. If anyone with the power to act reads this, I'm hoping for a new and different Web service free of fees and requiring only that you email your MS whereupon they do the rest, you sit back and if it's a hit, collect royalties


twnkltoz - 12/6/2009 at 01:17 PM

Let me make sure I understand your question. You want someone to publish your book without paying any fees and market it for you without you contributing any effort? Getting a traditional publisher to print it won't cost you anything, but that is not a guarantee for anyone! Even then, you will probably be expected to take part in the marketing of your book.

itzrissa2u - 12/6/2009 at 01:24 PM

SOunds like you want a print on demand (POD) if all you want is to get the book published. The fees are for when there are orders I believe.

It's not clear exactly what you want. You can do an E-book and sell it per download on Amazon as well.

Michy - 12/6/2009 at 02:54 PM

No, he doesn't.

what he wants and he's said this over and over and over in here, is a book packager - someone to send out his queries, to promote to the publishers/agents, to promote the book, etc, so that all he has to do is sign papers when asked.

What he doesn't realize is that agents do not like query services at all.... I've read numerous blog posts about them and how much the editors and agent despise them.

He's asking someone to build a site to do what the industry despises - not sure, but logic dictates that if agents and editors don't like those types of sites, those types of sites won't work very well.

dalehileman - 12/6/2009 at 03:50 PM

Alas alack

twn, yes, yes, that's what I was hoping for although my distaste for the idea of participating in its marketing, I am told, would almost certainly hinder if not preclude its acceptance

"Getting a traditional publisher to print it won't cost you anything, but that is not a guarantee for anyone! "

I had no hope whatever of that route, which as you say is no guarantee either. What with the advent of the Word Processor 25 times as many aspirants will write a book and each one will write 25 times as much so each publisher gets 625 times as many MS. Thus if Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged was mailed back by 12 publishers, today she might expect 7500 rejections

Michy forgive me

Michy - 12/6/2009 at 04:18 PM

Dale, there's no reason to forgive you - the issue here is that you've brought it up many times before and quite frankly, we all understand the frustration.

We would prefer to just write and let every publisher publish us and let them do all the work and not have to worry about the 'business' of writing. But we don't get to do that.

Like the industry or not, we have to work within it or radically make steps to change it - and one man isn't going to make that much difference, and with desperation and desire to be published, some writers will and have sold their souls for publication.

Because of this, affecting change isn't going to happen easily and I really want to write more than I was to lead a charge brigade against publishing.

dalehileman - 12/7/2009 at 01:20 PM

Michy I readily agree some of my posts seem repetitive as I have defended in

http://wordsmith.org/board/ubbthreads.php/topics/188130#Post188130

...but thank you for commiserating. When I was a kid things were different: Of course typing and mailing a MS with return postage was a whole lot more trouble than dashing it off as an email but I could on a whim write an article about some electronic invention I had contrived, send it to a suitable pub, and wait. If they liked it they published it and I got a check, if not they didn't (many times to be sure) and I got it back, nothing to it

Of course those were articles not books but now it seems the easiest part is writing a MS and the hardest marketing it. I hope as you say one of our participants is in a position to start a radically new such service as we dream for

One such man [or if I judge the ratio correctly, more likely woman] could in fact make that much difference but it seems no one is willing to lift the reins and lead the brigade, a Jesus of the Writer Community, an Einstein of Software

Michy why don't you establish a beachhead, a veritable Mary Magdalen of the MS

Yours for more striking postings of more colorful whimsy


[Edited on 12/7/2009 by dalehileman]

dalehileman - 12/8/2009 at 12:56 PM

PS: After much stumbling, blundering, muddling and with some consternation I finally located one "free" agency

http://www.StrategicBookMarketing.com/

......that without further ado accepted my emailed book MS with a promise to review it within two weeks.

non-fiction@wlwritersagency.com

or in my case

http://www.wlchildrensagency.com/

There was no commitment and the only additinal info I had to submit was

Edited: No
Edited Detail: n/a
Previously Published?: No
Illustrations other than the cover?: no
Illustrations Detail: n/a
Bio: BS journ, decades as tech writer
Genre: Humor
Grade: Select One
Name: Dale Hieman
Email: dalehileman@me.com
Phone: n/a
Title: The World, as tld to the young man in short words
Synopsis: This is what the world is like and what the young man should do
Grade: Select One
Type book: chapter I guess
FormSource: WLCLA
FormDate: 11/5/2009

Of course there's no guarantee they're even legitimate or if they are, would peruse anything beyond the first page nor even if they liked it, would accept it for possible marketing without some sort of fee raising its ugly head nor if they did market it gratis, whether it might sell at all

Sorry Michy if I'm a bit of a pessimest

,,,,,but I do bring is to youall's attention as a sort of faint hope

Michy - 12/8/2009 at 01:12 PM

Dale, Strategic is the #1 agency agents are complaining about - they pimp their services on each query and their queries are form letters - and they are NOT free.

P&E had some things to say about them.
Quote:

How many names will Sydra-Techniques Literary Agency/S.T. Literary Agency/Stylus Literary Agency/Children's Literary Agency/Christian Literary Agency/New York Literary Agency/The Poets Literary Agency/The Screenplay Agency, The Literary Agency Group, and Writers Book Publishing Agency go through before it settles on a name? The Writers Literary & Publishing Services Company (aka Writer's Literary Critique Division) and Rapid Publishing are also part of this group.

Keep in mind, folks, the names may change, but the smell of dead and dying manuscripts still lingers in the air around their agency.


http://www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/penulist.htm

It's about halfway down.

Then there's this:
Quote:

The Florida Attorney General recommends that any writers with complaints about any of the businesses comprising the AEG Publishing Group formerly the Writers Book Publishing Agency, formerly the Writers' Literary Agency & Marketing Company, formerly known as the Literary Agency Group, (be sure you mention their former names) should be reported to:

Office of the Attorney General
PL 01, The Capitol
Tallahassee, FL 32399-1050 (850) 414-3990

Office of the Attorney General, New York
Department of Law
The Capitol, 2nd Floor
Albany, NY 12224 (518) 474-7330

Randi Shapiro, Financial Investigator
Economic Crimes Division
Email: randi.shapiro@myfloridalegal.com
Phone: 954-712-4600

Federal Trade Commission (877) 382-4357
http://www.ftc.gov

BBB of Southeast Florida (516) 712-1918
http://www.bbbsoutheastflorida.org
(Be aware that reports to any BBB are unlikely to result in any significant action)

County Consumer Protection Offices
Palm Beach County, FL (561) 712-6600
http://www.pbcgov.com/pubsafety/comsumer/html/home.asp

Florida's Deceptive and Unfair Trade Practices Act does provide individuals with a private remedy to bring an action for damages, attorney's fees and court costs. The Florida Bar offers a Lawyer Referral Service: 1-800-342-8060



I think that makes it pretty clear - STAY AWAY.

Please go here: http://www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/penulist.htm

Read all that P&E had to say - there's a considerable amount of information as to why this is a bad place.

Michy - 12/8/2009 at 01:22 PM

Now let's look at your other link, Children's Literary Agency.

the owner of that agency was arrested as being fraudulent, according to reports I can find online. They are included in the annual top 20 WORST places for writers.

Here's what P&E had to say about them:
Quote:

Children's Literary Agency, The: Strongly not recommended. Also a Top Twenty worst according to Writer Beware. A literary agency. A Division of The Literary Agency Group, Inc.

* How good does your writing have to be to interest the Children's Literary Agency?



Dale, you're really making me do my work today.

Here's what it boils down to - you're looking for a shortcut. There isn't one.

If you would take the time you're spending looking for a shortcut and trying to 'get rich quick' and instead invested that time in marketing yourself and peddling your manuscript, you might have already been published, if your writing is even worthy of being published.

There is no shortcut in this industry unless you flat out know someone or you yourself are famous.

Please stop trying to take the easy way out and learn from us and for yourself how to go about doing this and we'll help you get published if your manuscript is worthy of it - but do not give your manuscript to these scam artists!

Incidence of psychosis...

Michy - 12/8/2009 at 01:25 PM

OMG, on that link above, Sherry said in an email correspondence that below is why she doesn't post the names of her clients on her website:
Quote:

(If you'll think about it, if you were one of our authors, you'd feel the
same way. There are a lot of wierdos on the Internet. Sometimes we think
that there is a higher incidence of psychosis among writers than any other
occupation.)


Do you really want someone who thinks this representing YOU as a writer?

Wow.... that is just stupid on her part to say that to a potential client.



[Edited on 12-8-2009 by Michy]

dalehileman - 12/8/2009 at 01:32 PM

Michy note that I did speculate, "Of course there's no guarantee they're even legitimate" but thank you so much for confirming what I had previously asserted, namely that there's very little if any hope for improvement of the system in which it has become far, far easier to write a book than to market it

But Michy forgive me for noting once more that much earlier you had roundly chided me for casting this hopeless pall

Though I admire your spirit and determination and that of those around you; so do carry on in a spirit of high optimism



[Edited on 12/8/2009 by dalehileman]

Nancy G. - 12/8/2009 at 02:31 PM

Dale, it sounds like it would be cheaper and easier for you to just self-publish your book. At least then you would have copies to give to friends and family.

Michy, it sounds like it is time for you to give up on convincing Dale!

Michy - 12/8/2009 at 02:34 PM

Eh, I figure someone else might learn something from his questions, yanno? I hope!

but, you're right for Dale... it might just be time for him to consider self-publishing!

twnkltoz - 12/8/2009 at 08:16 PM

Does the system really need improvement? What's wrong with it? Do you know how many people think they can write a book other people would want to read, but can't? I don't know the actual figure, but MANY. Why should publishers lose money printing and marketing a book that is not going to sell? The system is the way it is because the crap needs to get weeded out. Sorry, it's a harsh reality.

Michy - 12/8/2009 at 08:28 PM

I sorta agree with that. However, I do think there are some good books that get overlooked - and it's most because of what you said, everyone thinks they can write a book others want to read and they can't... so the slush piles fill up with wannabes, making it harder to find the good ones in the mix.

The other reason is because of the query - I suck at queries, but I think my writing is good.... I know others who write fantastic queries and they can't write a story through.

Queries, I think, weed out some who have good books but aren't so great at summarizing them or selling themselves. I guess that it's all part of it, since selling yourself and your book is part of being an author, but still... I hate that my query is what represents my book. I spent almost as much time writing it as I did my book, but I still look for agents that allow you to send sample chapters and pages, because I'm hoping the writing itself will impress.

twnkltoz - 12/8/2009 at 08:38 PM

Definitely a good point and an unfortunate side effect, but I just don't see how that could change.

Michy - 12/8/2009 at 08:43 PM

I don't either... and I would imagine most other folks don't know either, and that's why, since the 1800s, publishing hasn't really changed all that much.

It's also why, because of that, POD and self-publishing are becoming more popular...

dalehileman - 12/9/2009 at 10:38 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Nancy G.  
Dale, it sounds like it would be cheaper and easier for you to just self-publish your book. At least then you would have copies to give to friends and family.

Michy, it sounds like it is time for you to give up on convincing Dale!


Nancy thank you for that suggestion but I had already fielded the MS to F&F. Our two sons evidently liked it and a longtime FF praised it profusely but my mate rejected it out of hand. As far as vanity publishing is concerned I reject the possibility as a sort of capitulation

Intended for the young adult and or prospective parent and written in 77,000 words of one syllable each it's a bit scurrilous and prodigiously liberal in tone but if you would like to read it I'd be flattered. I can be contacted through

http://wordsmith.org/board/ubbthreads.php/topics/188099/My_email_ad...




Michy - 12/9/2009 at 12:05 PM

Dale, self publishing and vanity publishing are two different things.

dalehileman - 12/9/2009 at 01:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Michy  
Dale, self publishing and vanity publishing are two different things.


I'll be first to shamefacedly admit that my ignorance in these matters is overwhelming

However I'd be grateful if you explained the difference inasmuch as it would save me a trip to OneLook

dalehileman - 12/15/2009 at 12:56 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Michy  
I .........since the 1800s, publishing hasn't really changed all that much......and self-publishing are becoming more popular...


Michy forgive me for bubbling this one back to the top but publishing has changed radically if as part of the process you include fielding of the MS. As I pointed out earlier, it yousta be that you simply submitted the MS to a pub. If they didn't like it they simply mailed it back; if they liked it they published it; if it was successful you got royalties

But now as you point out that's merely a dream scenario

Michy - 12/15/2009 at 02:56 PM

Not really, Dale. I mean, while MORE people can submit to a publish than ever before because of the internet, that's not a radical change. The process itself is still the same.

Submit.
Wait.
Accept/Reject
Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

It's not a dream scenario. Many, many authors, literally thousands of them, are published every year, and they follow the same process they have always followed to get published.

The only difference now is, those who don't take the craft seriously can also submit, without it costing as much money as it used to. Other than that, the system is a bit antiquated, because it still works exactly the same as it ever has.

GWriters - 12/18/2009 at 03:39 AM

Submit.
Wait.
Accept/Reject
Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

this is definitely the process, but here you have to show some great deal of patience.

dalehileman - 12/18/2009 at 11:47 AM

A great deal indeed

Skwerly - 12/18/2009 at 02:11 PM

Wait -

Did you say you wrote a book that was 77,000 words long and every one of them is ONE syllable? How on earth did you manage that?

dalehileman - 12/18/2009 at 03:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Skwerly  
Wait -

Did you say you wrote a book that was 77,000 words long and every one of them is ONE syllable? How on earth did you manage that?


Using a word processor and a PC

I should be most happy to discuss this further, especially if you have in mind a topic not writing-related. As I am forbidden to reveal here my email address, please go to

http://wordsmith.org/board/ubbthreads.php/topics/188099/My_email_ad...

Michy - 12/18/2009 at 04:30 PM

Oh, that's utter bullshit, Dale. I've never told you not to enter your email address here.

You are dangerously getting close to me telling you to go take a time out in the corner and I'm going to give you my first ever 3-day ban.

You do this all over the freaking internet, and it's really growing old.

Sevastian Winters - 12/18/2009 at 04:47 PM

Dale, your ego is eclipsed only by the insecurity required to maintain such a magnificent structure. So I will say to you what my mother once wisely said to me... "You aren't as important or smart as you want people to think you are you little %*$*#, so shut up and learn something."

Ah... my dear mother... gotta love her!

Sangunati - 12/18/2009 at 07:28 PM

This would get me hung anywhere else. Just step back ya'll and smile and nod.


Publish America.

Michy - 12/18/2009 at 09:38 PM

(chuckle) so many will not understand why I am smiling and nodding, but yes, I'm smiling and nodding.

Sevastian Winters - 12/18/2009 at 09:43 PM

*winks knowingly @Michy*

Thomas Forthe (Tom) - 12/18/2009 at 10:17 PM

See Spot run. See Dick chase Spot. See Jane chase Spot....

Michy - 12/18/2009 at 10:28 PM

The F word, the C word, the S word, the H word.... all one syllable.

See Spot F. F, Spot, F. Aww, H.

Thomas Forthe (Tom) - 12/18/2009 at 10:41 PM

Aw, poor Spot!

Nancy G. - 12/18/2009 at 11:03 PM

y'all, not ya'll---a contraction of you and all--y'all.

Michy - 12/18/2009 at 11:06 PM

Unless you're in Texas, and then it's ya'll. Trust me on this one. It doesn't stand for 'you all' in Texas.

Sangunati - 12/19/2009 at 08:14 AM

I write it both ways depending on the situation. If I wrote it the way I say it? Yuh-allllll.

Also say it both ways- y'all and you all. Again depends on the situation.

*alcohol induced drawl provides entertainment for all listening.

Melanie - 12/19/2009 at 12:28 PM

Quote:
Publish America.


Oh come on now! That's a pretty damn low blow. :lol:

And you crazy southerners. It's youse, not ya'll or y'all.

Youse guys gotta get it right.

Sangunati - 12/19/2009 at 01:03 PM

You. Are. In. My. Closet. [aren't you?]

Everyone here says youse.


And I only suggest P.A. because everyone can get published there. No work. No sales. No nothing.

If someone really doesn't want to go the traditional route and get paid for their work, just wants to stare at it on a shelf or see it on Amazon, the vampires...whoops...publishers there are happy to help.

[Edited on 12/19/2009 by Sangunati]

itzrissa2u - 12/19/2009 at 01:06 PM

Mel is in your closet. She is coming to steal your Kahlua (too lazy to look up proper spelling). Run Sangunati, run!

Michy - 12/19/2009 at 03:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Sangunati  
I write it both ways depending on the situation. If I wrote it the way I say it? Yuh-allllll.

Also say it both ways- y'all and you all. Again depends on the situation.

*alcohol induced drawl provides entertainment for all listening.


See, yuh-alllll is y'all, which is the southern way of saying it.

In Texas, it's 'yawl', and that's spelled ya'll, and it's not the same thing!

Michy - 12/19/2009 at 03:14 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Sangunati  
You. Are. In. My. Closet. [aren't you?]

Everyone here says youse.


And I only suggest P.A. because everyone can get published there. No work. No sales. No nothing.

If someone really doesn't want to go the traditional route and get paid for their work, just wants to stare at it on a shelf or see it on Amazon, the vampires...whoops...publishers there are happy to help.

[Edited on 12/19/2009 by Sangunati]


Actually, if someone really wants to get a book on the shelf, and doesn't care about trade publishing or traditional publishing routes, and they can afford a small investment on their own, the best route is to be truly self published and go with some of the industry POD printers (print on demand, not publish on demand - two different things). If they can't afford a modest upfront expense, though, Lulu isn't a bad option for self-publishing - it's still vanity publishing, and their prices they have to charge for retail books are exorbitant compared to industry standards, but they don't charge anything or much upfront, depending on what you get, and they do a 'decent' job with books.

Sangunati - 12/19/2009 at 05:08 PM

But. . . PA pays you a big $1 advance!

I'm just being evil. Recently someone commented to me how wonderful it was that their daughter in law had been published by PA. Seems the lady who'd been published neglected to mention her advance was only $1. This is a family member, so I'm a bitter old fart about it.

Doesn't show, does it? ;)

Sevastian Winters - 12/19/2009 at 05:25 PM

I have YET to read a self published book that holds my interest. I'm a book snob. I don't even like a lot of the ones that are LEGITIMATELY published. The fundamental problem with self-published books is that the editorial process is subverted. That makes for bad books. In the end, a qualified editor should be the FINAL GATEKEEPER before publication. Without that, 999,999 times out of a million, you will print a waste of ink, paper, and effort.

Svenja - 12/20/2009 at 05:29 PM

The only self-published book I ever (tried to) read was atrocious. After spotting about a dozen grammar and spelling errors in the first two pages (one of them in the very first sentence), I put it down. Not to mention the premise was boring, the characters flat, the prose generic at best. It was written by an acquaintance, which was the only reason I got it in my hands in the first place.

Also, we say "yis", "youse" and "ye" here. But never like "youse guys". Just "Are yis/youse/ye coming over?" etc.

Irish English is really grammatically incorrect at times. :smilegrin:

Sangunati - 12/20/2009 at 06:01 PM

What, you live in South Buffalo?

Southerners say 'ye'. Well, oldtimers do.