MsJoanne
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Need help with obtaining technical details
I need some direction and am hoping someone can assist.
I need to speak with either a cop or a coroner and don't know how to find one willing to help.
I am killing my character, death by train...sorta. :-). He'll be sitting in a car when a speeding train hits that car. He is already dead, though.
I am trying to get info on what happens to cars and human bodies when that takes place because I need him to be wrecked enough to hide the prior
murder but not so damaged that they won't notice a cleanly cut off hand, which is nowhere to be found at the scene of the "accident."
Let me also say (not to sound as conceited as this probably does) that I am a master researcher, if it exists on the Internet, I can find it and I
know how to use a library and bookstore thoroughly. The problem is photos. I do not want to have horrific pictures burned into my mind, hence my
desire to speak with someone (and be able to ask follow up questions, etc.)
How does one go about finding that sort of expert?
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raian76
Superlative Writer
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Call your local police station and ask to speak with someone about it.
I've found that introducing myself as a writer has opened many doors.
JMHO, I think your scenario would work well, having him hit by the speeding train would cover up the first murder. However I think they could
determine time of death by tissue samples. As for the hand being cleanly severed, that might be difficult. I imagine a hand could come off cleanly
in a train/car crash.
Sounds like an intriqueing storyline.
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MsJoanne
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Excellent! Thank you! (Who'd a thunk it could be that easy!)
TOD shouldn't be an issue...it will be within hours, if that, during a typical Midwestern winter. And the cops will be slightly suspicious (due to
the hand, I'm hoping) but not able to prove anything or really do a full blown investigation due to lack of actionable evidence (again hopefully).
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Tangoshoes
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Interesting indeed... I have a manuscript in which a death happens and all that good stuff and am prepared to go to the local p d to ask a few
questions and maybe do a ride along, one of my mains is a cop, the murderer in fact! But yeah, LOL how do you really approach them? "Hiya! Writer
here, uh, can you walk me through a murder scene? Oh, and the killer, he's a cop... Can you help me with some character notes?"
Buy the ticket, take the ride.
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GarryMcL
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When I was in law enforcement I either handled or was on the scene of several, 3 that I can think of, and it isn't a pretty sight.
If it was a driect bradside hit on the car, on the drivers side, with the train traveling at 60mph ... It would take days to gather up the pieces of
the guy. SOme of them would be pretty small and some of them they may never find. In this case they would rule th TOD at the time of the accident.
The vehicle would resemble a basket ball and possibly be in two main crumpled pieces. There would be brains, and pieces of all of the organs, scattled
everywhere including embedded in the seat covers and smeared all over the the car parts.
What else do you need?
Garry-
[Edited on 7/23/2010 by GarryMcL]
[Edited on 7/23/2010 by GarryMcL]
52,578 words WIP
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MsJoanne
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Wow...just, wow!
Quote: Originally posted by GarryMcL  | When I was in law enforcement I either handled or was on the scene of several, 3 that I can think of, and it isn't a pretty sight.
What else do you need? |
I'd like to write the scene where they, the police, could: 1. See extensive cuts on the body parts left, but mostly assume it was from the train and
not torture my poor guy is going to endure, 2. Notice a clean cut at the wrist, with the rest of the trauma being jagged, and, 3. A missing hand,
nowhere at the scene of the accident.
Is it possible that the police could realistically notice a missing hand?
Are people usually identifiable after such an accident?
How do police/emergency personnel handle the remains on scene?
Is there anything to bury? How might or does a family handle a funeral?
And I am sorry that you experienced that, truly, but thank you so much for your help!
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GarryMcL
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I think I answered all of your questions. Glad my life's miseries are a to help you.
Garry-
| Quote: | 1. See extensive cuts on the body parts left, but mostly assume it was from the train and not torture my poor guy is going to endure, 2. Notice a
clean cut at the wrist, with the rest of the trauma being jagged, and, 3. A missing hand, nowhere at the scene of the accident.
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The scene that I described was a true happening the committed suicide ... He parked on the racks where the train would do the most damage. There was
no body part remaining that was larger than a basket ball. We spent hours looking for body part that night and then the next day we found a foot,
still in a tied shoe about 50 yards away.
The only way you could tell if a hand was severed before the accident would be by thoe coroner.
My suggestion would be (in your story) is they don't find the hand at the scenem, but at a different location. LEOs would probably continue you
looking for it at the scene fro a while and then give up.
Once the hand is located the corner would be able to detect the hand was removed while the subject was alone, verses the appaearance of the rest of
the parts where the victum was dead.
| Quote: | | Is it possible that the police could realistically notice a missing hand? |
Yes, it is possible. The police and coroner tried to recover all of the missing parts. I have gathered up brain fragments at scene and put them in a
plastic bag.
| Quote: | | Are people usually identifiable after such an accident? |
most tme not immediately. The use of a drivers license or license plate is usually the first evidence., and they may have to resort to finger prints
or worse case scenario, dental records for positive id.
| Quote: | | How do police/emergency personnel handle the remains on scene? |
theypick up or scope up the pieces and put them in a body bag. some small pieces may be in zip log bags which are placed in the body bag.
| Quote: | | Is there anything to bury? How might or does a family handle a funeral? |
Once the identity is established and all evidence is gather from the body. The remains are turned over to the family, a funeral home picks everything
up in a body bag. A closed casket funeral is held.
52,578 words WIP
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GarryMcL
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An added point and question. What time period is your story set in? Investigative procedures are much different now than they were even in early
1980s. The present day gives you so much more to work with ... remember the first Criminal/legal/court case using DNA wasn't until late 1988, and it
was in England.
During even the 1960s and 1970s, there were very few forensic techinigues.
Garry-
52,578 words WIP
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Paul
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Get and read a book named "How We Die", not a fun read but very informative about the subject.
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moonshadow68
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Our local police have been very helpful to writers in this area. The sheriff (and the guy running against him) are family friends as is the police
chief in my town, so asking these kinds of questions is a little easier. But generally speaking law enforcement like to be helpful for these
things.
As Garry pointed out the issue will be how the car is placed on the tracks and where on the tracks.
In the country, where the trains are barrelling along, you'll have less evidence than in some cities. In Carbondale, for instance, trains have to slow
to 30 mph before approaching the city limits (both passenger and freight trains), so there might be bigger pieces. In fact, even people who fell
asleep on the tracks and were hit by trains (stupid drunks) are usually in pieces but not chunky salsa as the ones Garry described were. Those people
were usually hit by Amtrak trains slowing down as they came into the station.
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MsJoanne
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Thanks to all of you!!
The missing hand is a trophy, so it won't be found. I like the slow down of the train, that might work out well.
I am most appreciative of all your assistance. Thank you all so very much!
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Dan_Hensley
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MsJoanne,
I'll follow up on Garry's details to help you out.
I also spent time in the Public Safety business. I come from a medical family, have worked in a hospital, lived by railroad tracks, worked in the
transportation business, and specialized in incident response, investigation, and incident reporting and communications.
Here's the run down completely from start to finish, omitting Garry's details so as not to duplicate things and become confusing:
1. Accident happens: Train engineer may or may not be able to see a track obstruction depending on visibility factors. These factors are weather,
lighting (time of day or evening), location, and speed.
The engineer may or may not be able to hit the brakes. It takes at LEAST 2,800 feet for a train to stop. Trains weight several thousand tons if not
several hundred thousand tons and these are the factors for a train's stopping distance:
Number of engines, number of cars, type of engines & cars, weight of each car respectively, speed, track material / composition, condition of brake
system and quantity of air in the brake system (trains are like big rigs...they use air brakes), Track condition, and WHEN the engineer actually spots
a track obstruction.
2. Once the train stops completely, the engineer makes radio notification to the rail dispatcher who usually is located in another city & state.
Dispatch notifies the police, fire, ems, civil defense, homeland security, FRA (Federal Railroad Administration), National Transportation Safety Board
(NTSB), and the railroad corporate authorities to include railroad Special Agents and Human Resources.
3. The responders will arrive on-scene and determine what areas to block off to railroad traffic, road traffic, pedestrian traffic, and will decide
who needs to be on-scene, what jobs will be performed and by whom. The engineer is immediately interviewed and checked by paramedics. Engineer will
give hair and urine samples for drug testing under direct supervision.
4. Garry's details kick in
5. Medical Examiner usually will not arrive until the investigation is finished and is called in by the authorities.
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MsJoanne
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Thanks, Dan! Great information I will likely use.
Most appreciated!
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Ditchdoctor
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When I was running on the ambulance a man pinned a suicide note to his jacket and jumped in front of a train. Other than a really horrible look frozen
on his face, he had a flat area the size of a train wheel going across his waist and the section of arm just below the wrist was also flat as a
pancake. The wheel somehow pulled all of the skin on that arm and shoulder down into a bunch. He looked like he had been professionally skinned on
that arm and shoulder.
Don't let fear and common sense stand in your way.
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andisaid
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Yuck this is a gory thread but fascinating. Like witnessing a train wreck. I want to look away but somehow can't...
Good luck with your story
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justkat73
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| Quote: Originally posted by moonshadow68 | Our local police have been very helpful to writers in this area. The sheriff (and the guy running against him) are family friends as is the police
chief in my town, so asking these kinds of questions is a little easier. But generally speaking law enforcement like to be helpful for these
things.
As Garry pointed out the issue will be how the car is placed on the tracks and where on the tracks.
In the country, where the trains are barrelling along, you'll have less evidence than in some cities. In Carbondale, for instance, trains have to slow
to 30 mph before approaching the city limits (both passenger and freight trains), so there might be bigger pieces. In fact, even people who fell
asleep on the tracks and were hit by trains (stupid drunks) are usually in pieces but not chunky salsa as the ones Garry described were. Those people
were usually hit by Amtrak trains slowing down as they came into the station. |
Chunky salsa? Omg talk about a visual..as I eat a brownie no less. umm no chips and salsa for me tonight, thanks.
I wanted to chime in and say that you may want to get ahold of a railroad engineer to get some of the specifics for calculating the amount of cars,
speed and location of the train.
Aside from that, I have to agree with Andi...want to look away but just can't!
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